What is the art of clowning, really?

00:00:05: Welcome to another Between Two Curtains podcast episode, produced by Red Nose's International.

00:00:12: Today we'll be exploring healthcare.

00:00:14: clowning as a serious art form one that brings play connection and emotional support into hospitals care homes and crisis settings will unpack the misconceptions The craft behind the red nose And why something as simple as humour can have such a profound impact.

00:00:32: And to explore this topic, I'm joined by Lukasz Hodek a professional clowning coach and teacher who's worked as a healthcare clown for over twenty five years.

00:00:42: So Lukasz welcome.

00:00:43: thank you for joining me today.

00:00:45: Thank You so much.

00:00:46: it is pleasure!

00:00:47: So Clowning is genuinely an art form.

00:00:50: How was that?

00:00:52: few people see it?

00:00:54: Many People i think See clowns As characters or figures That are of the least consequence in theater, and therefore also off-the-least consequence in life.

00:01:08: When you look at someone with a red nose on do you have a tendency to go kind of ah well I don't really have to worry too much about this person?

00:01:14: You know it's just about fun!

00:01:16: It is just about the laughs...I think that somehow connects us with how we perceive comedy as such..it has always been considered The Little Sister Of Tragedy.

00:01:25: Tragedies are there to teach us about Life.

00:01:27: Comedy kill time, essentially.

00:01:30: You know when we have nothing better to do which is a misconception in itself for sure but that's not our topic.

00:01:37: also some of it has to do with the clown figure or the clown character The modern clown figure being born out-of-the-circus Which is off course?

00:01:48: The circus is you know It's at place with many people.

00:01:50: its uh...The audience Is very strong on the stage.

00:01:54: In the manage.

00:01:54: you Have To compete For Attention With Horses and many other animals and much stuff is happening there with acrobats being high in the air, which kind of forced clowns to be loud.

00:02:07: To be big you know... Big shoes!

00:02:09: And big

00:02:09: pants!!

00:02:10: And big makeup and big

00:02:12: hats!!!

00:02:13: So when you take a clown out of the circus and put this clown figure into hospital for example as You know, sometimes happens.

00:02:23: People think that this is the way to do it in some organizations.

00:02:27: This Is The Approach.

00:02:29: Then you will immediately find out That this figure of the clown with a big red nose Which sometime she can squeeze and makes noises And you notice Big, big figure.

00:02:40: It does not fit In hospital room because there's no hundreds Of people.

00:02:44: There are just little kids in a horizontal position.

00:02:49: So you have to take all these trappings away and... You just need the essence of the clown or healthcare clown, in this situation-in that condition And I think there's partial insensitivity on how the clown figure is being translated into different environments How it has been communicated with different audiences.

00:03:12: I think this also in part is responsible for clowns not being taken too seriously, because they are seen as insensitive anyway.

00:03:21: But you cannot really put a clown from the circus into healthcare environments.

00:03:27: like i said You have to transform this figure into a health care clown which has very different concept altogether.

00:03:34: but The basic task remains the same it's make people laugh and enjoy life.

00:03:42: So, on that note.

00:03:43: What is the biggest misunderstanding about what a healthcare clown is?

00:03:49: I would say when people think of health care clowns or clowns in general... ...I think they often see the external face of a clown.

00:03:59: They see the trappings of the clown You know..they think of the wig and they think up the loud voice.

00:04:04: And then you have to make-up and costume and big shoes.

00:04:11: All these things are pointless in the hospital.

00:04:16: There's no competition for the attention of the audience, so we can do without all this thing.

00:04:22: One of the biggest misunderstandings about healthcare clowning is that they're clowns just in their external appearance That there well-meaning people who dress up as clowns and put on a nose And then come to entertain children which is not professional.

00:04:41: You know, they are well-meaning amateurs.

00:04:45: in our organization and in Red Noses International there's so much emphasis put on the professionality of work that all these external appearances are secondary to skill or art of clowning.

00:04:59: you need to develop within.

00:05:01: it isn't something you can see from a clown artist.

00:05:08: People have this real stereotype of what a clown is.

00:05:11: And as you said, it's this real circus silly big hair clown but health care clown is something very different to that.

00:05:18: yes and Of course there's the even bigger misconception Is connected with the horror?

00:05:22: You know the killer figure.

00:05:24: That's something that's relatively new because he has taken on A life of its own.

00:05:29: we must constantly keep Persuading people that what we do and we have to do it through.

00:05:34: What can you do?

00:05:36: That would be completely different than what they do is not allowed there, but we do isn't.

00:05:40: on the surface We still don't make people love And uh... It's our main objective to make people feel good and to Make People enjoy life essentially no matter what situation your in.

00:05:55: But we are not doing it by appearing as clowns or by connecting to a stereotype.

00:06:04: And when we think about that clown stereotype, I guess silliness is a big part of it?

00:06:09: So what does the healthcare clowns do besides being silly?

00:06:14: Yes, clowns often are described as silly and clumsy.

00:06:17: if you ask kids... What do clowns usually say?

00:06:19: Well they have red nose and they're behaving silly or funny and clumsy.

00:06:26: Actually this clumsiness is a rather profound way of playing the game of life.

00:06:37: And I'll try and explain this sentence, I think professional clowns are very deep-rooted in reality.

00:06:44: that's the first thing because we often think of clowns.

00:06:46: as someone who lives in fantasy world you know it's like nothing real.

00:06:50: its just all balloons and smiles and bubbles.

00:06:54: A professional clown is very deeply rooted which is yet another reason why hospital has a good place for a clown to live and do what they do.

00:07:07: A healthcare clown, I mean!

00:07:09: In order to be silly you need to accept obstacles.

00:07:15: You need see the world as an obstacle.

00:07:18: Now there's difference between being an obstacle like illness is an obstacle.

00:07:24: Being in the hospital IS an obstacle.

00:07:27: A cast on your leg is an obstacle.

00:07:31: But it's quite another thing to put obstacles in front of yourself, which is exactly what clowns do.

00:07:38: that the definition of game.

00:07:39: actually you know... The definition of Game as put forward by the British philosopher Bernard Soetz.

00:07:48: It a voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles.

00:07:53: so clown are people who puts actively, unnecessary obstacles in their way and they try to overcome these obstacles.

00:08:01: In this way They encounter problems... ...they behave in a clumsy and silly way.

00:08:07: but we have to bear in mind that These are not people who would trip over anything That stands in your way.

00:08:14: You first have to design the obstacle for yourself And the obstacle has to be good enough and creative enough that it enables you to overcome its in a way.

00:08:25: That makes other people laugh, so let's the beginning of the art.

00:08:28: how do design an obstacle for yourself?

00:08:31: It is not and arched at people would normally enjoy.

00:08:34: we do not designed obstacles for ourselves which try to avoid obstacles as much as we can but clowns like always think of them as being in their workshops, you know creating obstacles engineering obstacles putting together mechanisms that they can then trip over.

00:08:49: In a very creative way.

00:08:51: it's different to trip over something and to be able to create That thing.

00:08:56: is that you tripped over yourself?

00:09:01: Yeah, really fascinating.

00:09:03: I think a lot of people would never even dare to assume that there's so much that goes into being a healthcare clown... ...I think maybe they assumed the clowns just show up and yeah be silly but there is a deep thought that goes in it.

00:09:16: And when we think about someone who was a clown A circus clown perhaps or a clown performer What will take them?

00:09:23: turn somebody like that into a health care clown?

00:09:27: Yes!

00:09:28: There are many different types of performers.

00:09:30: If I were to speak in the technical procedure, it's like first you have to apply of course.

00:09:36: You know?

00:09:36: We want a healthcare clown and we need to apply for that position.

00:09:40: The first step by artistic departments is non-discriminatory.

00:09:46: In a way It can be good but also without performative experience.

00:09:55: That still does not disqualify from becoming a health care clown.

00:10:00: Of course, being an experienced performer can be helpful because clowning and healthcare-clowning included is a art form where you have to stand in front of the audience.

00:10:12: You also need basic technique so that you know how it relates with your audience.

00:10:17: Having said this, I think it's very different from acting.

00:10:20: If there are a lot of acting experiences, it isn't necessarily helpful if we want to become a health care clown.

00:10:28: So let's imagine we have this person who has come to the audition, become a healthcare clown.

00:10:34: And the question that stands in front of us is like you said how do we make these persons into health care clowns?

00:10:40: What's the process what's procedure?

00:10:42: Procedure largely it was mystery.

00:10:45: I would say there are many steps which were very challenging.

00:10:50: You know We had face lot challenges during training Sometimes with surprising results.

00:10:56: I think you have to have a lot of empathy.

00:10:59: You've got the good grasp on who are, which is one of the most difficult things to do.

00:11:05: It's like... ...you need to understand what your doing and how to control yourself.

00:11:10: You also need to be able to relate with feelings or connect with your body and mind.

00:11:18: listening to myself when it all sounds almost esoteric but still theatre!

00:11:23: You just have to be aware of where you stand in the space, what your body is doing.

00:11:28: Who's looking at you?

00:11:29: What is age for a person who looks at you?

00:11:31: or potential handicaps because we are speaking off healthcare setting?

00:11:37: and when combine all these perspectives together... ...you need to figure out how make that person laugh!

00:11:44: Now thats' biggest challenge of all isn't it?

00:11:48: When someone tells me to make them laugh or make somebody else laugh.

00:11:52: It's one of the most difficult tasks that you can get, it is almost impossible!

00:11:57: So how do we teach people to do this and how do people discover these abilities within themselves?

00:12:04: That's the greatest mystery.

00:12:05: there are ways and techniques and methods and exercises but all takes time.

00:12:12: in my opinion they come back with a question like Are We Playful Enough?

00:12:17: Do I have enough energy to get involved in a game with myself, which would be interesting for the audience to watch.

00:12:28: Does this make any sense?

00:12:29: I wonder because it also sounds probably very cryptical or enigmatic.

00:12:34: but when you see a clown you know immediately is he or she a clown or not?

00:12:38: maybe laugh or not... It's quite clear.

00:12:42: if for sure makes sense i just I mean, i'm also surprised at how extensive the training is and... ...how much healthcare clients have to go through.

00:12:51: To become a health care clown.

00:12:53: would you say that this element of the training?

00:12:55: This teaching The Health Care Clowns How To Make People Laugh?

00:12:59: Is That The Most Surprising Element Of The Training It Takes To Become A Healthcare Clown?

00:13:04: Or Is There Something Else That Might Surprise People?

00:13:07: Since The Moment I Applied Twenty-Five Years ago For The Position Of Healthcare Cloun I keep being surprised.

00:13:15: So, it's like a box full of surprises that never stops.

00:13:20: amazing

00:13:21: you.".

00:13:21: This sounds like advertising for the profession but actually its largely true so i couldn't really put my finger on what is the most surprising thing which will go through.

00:13:32: But For me It was entering this very special world where everything... Its not your escaping reality in the clown world, like I said already.

00:13:43: It's like you're entering an augmented version of reality.

00:13:47: actually a reality becomes even more real but you treat it as though it was game.

00:13:53: You know.

00:13:53: so its like.

00:13:54: you treated us very playful way and when approach to reality is material for play For Clown Play then your in for one surprise after another.

00:14:07: I think maybe one of the biggest surprises to answer a question in more specific way for many people is how much work it actually involves.

00:14:16: It's like because people would think, okay i'm an actor and can play my way into clowning.

00:14:22: this almost never works probably never works.

00:14:26: You cannot really play the role of a clown because clown is not a role.

00:14:31: Now this we would have to unpack in some kind of longer version, what does it mean?

00:14:39: Clowning isn't a role so its clown me.

00:14:42: but if the clown is me then you know where's the difference between me and the clown becomes very philosophical.

00:14:49: But I think many people try enjoying project thinking.

00:14:53: It's going to be rather simple, clowning is probably not very difficult.

00:14:58: To do like you know making sick children laugh and all that sounds like a very easy job And I can't probably do it without much training.

00:15:06: All three are false.

00:15:09: You really have to put a lot of work into this.

00:15:12: Yeah but sounds like That's very much the case and i assume especially because These healthcare clans are dealing with a hospital environment, which you know is a serious environment.

00:15:22: It's an emotional environment and it's something that does require a lot of training.

00:15:26: so why?

00:15:28: Is the artistic quality that we work so hard on at red noses?

00:15:32: Why does that matter so much in our hospital environment or care home or crisis setting?

00:15:39: I think The main reason is there.

00:15:43: all these settings as you just described are professional themselves.

00:15:48: It's like you have to be a real professional when you work in healthcare, the health care institution has to run very professionally because it deals with serious things.

00:15:58: so do care homes emergency settings.

00:16:02: that is same thing.

00:16:03: You need people who are professional and well-oriented in what they're doing.

00:16:09: you need people focused on audience that they serve.

00:16:13: all these combine together.

00:16:16: this is what health care clowns should be too if you want to be a strong and reliable partner for these institutions.

00:16:23: You have to be strong in these fields, and then he will be respected and accepted.

00:16:29: like we said at the beginning it's not always easy.

00:16:31: clowns are not when they put on red nose your not the best advocate of being taken seriously by definition which like yet another reason why the project that supports you, by the organization that sends into these institutions must be super professional.

00:16:49: For this artists to able do their silly clumsy work essentially they need supported by an organisation which is able to advocate It's service which is able to explain why we do the things that way.

00:17:07: We do them and while you think they fit perfectly in environments where it would maybe not be seen as the most natural

00:17:15: Perfect.

00:17:16: And connected on to that, when we think about the staff of people who work in these facilities I think people would often... yeah okay?

00:17:24: Of course it's impacting the patients who are there.

00:17:26: The people live in this facility But iIthink People occasionally could forget About the staff Who carry a lot everyday working In difficult environments.

00:17:35: How does health care clowns presence affect those people?

00:17:40: Clowns do not make differences between their audiences which is why health care clowns do not either.

00:17:48: So when healthcare clowns come to any of these institutions, everybody they meet is essentially their audience.

00:17:55: They don't just play for the kids overlooking the adults.

00:18:00: For the clown artists or rather for the clown figure...for the character Everybody's a member of the audience.

00:18:09: Of course The Clown Artists differentiate between people and they know where to focus their attention in a certain situation.

00:18:19: These people, the staff...the people who take care of the people in the institutions or healthcare settings like you said are quite often overlooked.

00:18:30: not only that but it's very touching when they come to the clowns.

00:18:35: How do you do this?

00:18:36: You know, how is it possible that...you can take so much psychological burden on yourself.

00:18:43: You see so many difficult things and yes!

00:18:45: You manage to make the people..to make children ..to make the audience laugh.

00:18:49: And I find this touching because like the only logical answer would be Do i hear correctly?

00:18:55: are YOU telling me this Like you who spend a whole day The whole shift in situation are telling me, you know who come just for a few hours into the institution.

00:19:06: And my job is solely basically to make people feel good and to make them laugh.

00:19:11: You're telling me how can I bear so much pressure?

00:19:14: How can i take on such psychological burden?

00:19:17: it is them Who actually have the biggest burden It's obvious which also why healthcare clowns aren't there?

00:19:24: very much For them.

00:19:26: They try To make them love as much they do any other audience in these settings and they deserve it.

00:19:33: Yeah,

00:19:34: for sure.

00:19:35: And its beautiful what you said about the clown being a kind of equalizer.

00:19:38: In this environments everybody to them is same.

00:19:42: everyone can be involved.

00:19:44: It's like a presence that connects with every body.

00:19:48: So when we think about children in those kinds of environment children appreciate this kind of art that the clowns are doing in these settings so deeply.

00:19:59: They connect with it really well.

00:20:01: and how is that the case?

00:20:03: I actually think you answered a question yourself, like thirty seconds ago because what do you set about clowns?

00:20:11: basically we could also say about children.

00:20:13: Children are also great equalizers.

00:20:16: they relate to everybody very much same way curious about everyone.

00:20:23: They are curious of the whole world, they do not have an agenda... ...they don't set themselves goals and objectives.. ..and they do no treat reality as a means to satisfy these subjectives.

00:20:40: They treat reality is something to be discovered.

00:20:44: it's something very intriguing and potentially dangerous But it's something that you kind of keep going towards rather than stepping back.

00:20:54: That is how kids learn to walk, isn't there?

00:20:56: You fall a thousand times and she do not give up even though it hurts sometimes but still keeps pushing.

00:21:03: And I think this Is something children have in common with clowns.

00:21:08: This what the kid relates immediately.

00:21:12: They understand because they relate to reality much the same way as children do.

00:21:21: And this is something on an instinctive level, I think you know it's like clowns are not theater so we don't have to explain the concept of theater.

00:21:29: some very small children might not even understand the concept but clowns or beings who are psychologically similar and yet they're adults.

00:21:41: here we had a big kind of incongruous situation which is one of the sources for humor that clowns produce, but it's also one reason why children relate to them in such an easy way because they speak the same language as they do without speaking any language at all.

00:22:01: Yeah, that really makes sense.

00:22:02: And I never thought about it like this before.

00:22:04: and i suppose also the children and clowns alike are Really engaged with a sense of play?

00:22:11: It's not something they're cautious about exploring.

00:22:14: They both willingly play.

00:22:16: Thinking as an adult.

00:22:18: is there any sense of playing or do we just stop allowing ourselves to indulge in

00:22:29: it?

00:22:31: We have a tendency to channel this elsewhere.

00:22:35: We have that tendency, too.

00:22:36: put the label on.

00:22:37: is it's like you know we accept as adults?

00:22:40: We accept play has in terms of sports for example You know what we say because so sports are an acceptable form Of adults playing.

00:22:49: but we have to call It something and then we have To give it a special kind of arena.

00:22:54: No way I've to give it these jerseys since you know football whatever Or it's something, like batting or things like this.

00:23:02: We put these special categories on us and we dissociate ourselves from them unless we enter the special arena... ...unless you go into a casino where kids make us go to a merry-go-round forcibly in my case anyway.

00:23:18: Unless they play football or watch a basketball game.

00:23:22: but in our everyday adult lives none of those should be present.

00:23:29: It's all pushed to the sides, it is somewhere else.

00:23:34: I think this something we do for ourselves and not very beneficial.

00:23:40: When you awaken the spirit of play in your everyday life i think reality becomes much more cheery.

00:23:51: there is a lot more fun when we don't go to specialized places to enjoy being playful.

00:23:58: But rather, we are playful in our everyday encounters with the world which starts you know... ...with a chair that I sit on and table that computer is on And it ends nowhere.

00:24:10: The World Is A Perfect Tool For Being Playful but We Do Not Use It for That End Because like i said.. ..we delegate this To Children Or To These Special Activities That We Consider or Call Playful.

00:24:26: myself appreciate if we were all more playful than I think the world would be.

00:24:33: much nicer place to be.

00:24:35: Yeah, I agree we could all benefit from a little bit more play in our lives.

00:24:39: so i'm sure no

00:24:40: absolutely for me.

00:24:40: lot more players yeah.

00:24:43: So when we think about the overall goal of the work of healthcare clowns?

00:24:47: We've explored it in real detail today like very philosophically.

00:24:51: but if we think About The Goal Of What Healthcare Clowns Are Doing Is Love The Main Goal Or A Byproduct Of Something Deeper?

00:25:00: If You Put You know, a lot of health care pounds in the room and you throw this question.

00:25:05: And then do you run away?

00:25:06: It will cause a lot... A lot of activity around.

00:25:11: these questions are really endless discussions because some people would argue that yes there's not much more beyond laughter.

00:25:18: Laughter itself is an objective and an aim.

00:25:22: if you make someone laugh from their heart have already succeeded.

00:25:26: all rest comes or follows.

00:25:30: There are other people who would say cloning is not about laughter.

00:25:34: Cloning can be very poetic, so even if you do NOT make your audience laugh maybe you still succeed it as a clown!

00:25:43: So there's the whole spectrum of perspectives and opinions.

00:25:48: I personally would say when i'm performing as a CLOWN and hear people laugh a good feeling, or I feel that it is a good sign.

00:26:00: That i have arrived at the destination together with them for which was aiming Which basically just you know saying in an ice-weighted and would say yes laughter as goal.

00:26:11: maybe im kind of leaning more towards this side of spectrum but since we work in healthcare settings sometimes really laughter Sometimes its not even appropriate.

00:26:24: This is difficult to judge, but sometimes you can feel that the person who like your audience does not want to laugh.

00:26:32: So we are not going to force them to love.

00:26:34: and still by being amazed by the world And by seeing the word as it has a challenge Like we described before and by saying The World As an obstacle You Can Still Relate To That Person Very Much.

00:26:47: There's this very touching story that A friend of mine A colleague Of Mine Was Telling Me From A Psychiatry Award.

00:26:54: There was a teenage girl and she, you know... She was in this situation.

00:26:59: Very melancholy You know?

00:27:01: She had just experienced something very dead-in her life And she was looking at the sun setting behind window.

00:27:06: The clown came!

00:27:09: This is not moment to start creating a gag.

00:27:14: So she sat next to that girl.

00:27:16: They looked at sunset together.

00:27:20: She was crying her eyes out and the clown started crying also, they both cried looking at each other.

00:27:26: And then they start laughing so hard because they both cry.

00:27:30: it's such an absurd situation.

00:27:33: Laughter might come even though you do not.

00:27:37: kind of advise, is that you definitely don't push for it and might still come.

00:27:41: But without the laughter.

00:27:43: maybe there was some very strong connection which would be difficult to establish a known clown artist in such situation.

00:27:52: Right, I can imagine it's a very layered question to answer and the role of healthcare clown is very nuanced.

00:27:59: And laughter as you said not always the primary goal.

00:28:03: how does something that looks like light as humour become genuine tool for mental health support?

00:28:10: You are right in calling humour light anyway!

00:28:14: That coming back to first question... Humour generally considered to something serious or heavy in this way.

00:28:24: And yes, I would argue having studied humour for some time and having performed humour if you get it that sounds very strange cannot really perform humour can you?

00:28:34: I take the sentence back because so very pretentious.

00:28:39: but i think actually humour is just hiding behind a veil of lightness.

00:28:46: It's actually something meaningful.

00:28:49: It's something very substantial.

00:28:51: But it is wearing this translucent, transparent coats of... Do not look at me!

00:28:59: I'm almost not here and that just happens on the side when comes or goes.

00:29:05: but i actually think that When we look for a meaningful relationship with reality in our own lives I think it is almost impossible to do without humor.

00:29:17: Humor's a mighty tool in making meaningful connection with our lives, other people and situation of life.

00:29:28: It keeps us very healthy.

00:29:30: It pretends light.

00:29:35: It is also extremely meaningful, but once you put a finger on the meaning.

00:29:39: Once you say oh let's all use this mighty tool of humor as I called it we're gonna break its... You know?

00:29:46: It's extremely fragile!

00:29:48: Its'a bit like bones.

00:29:49: They are fragile But they are so strong.. You have to be sensitive in dealing with humour.

00:29:57: You need to be careful not too scared away Like a wild animal.

00:30:01: Very strong and shy.

00:30:05: Yeah, so many definitions.

00:30:08: These are all great analogies and I totally agree.

00:30:12: it's fragile but we need every day.

00:30:15: if you didn't have humour then life would be much darker or use to cope with having fun in different things such a versatile tool which is vital too for the work at Red Noses.

00:30:28: Okay, and to wrap up this extensive topic in chat that we've had today.

00:30:34: I want to think about the fact so much of this art form is actually about turning vulnerability into strength.

00:30:42: So after all what you talked about What do believe clown figure ultimately teaches us about being human?

00:30:50: You used the word vulnerability.

00:30:52: I would use the same words and say there is no strength without vulnerability.

00:30:59: If we keep pushing for just strength, if we keep on pushing for profits or success ultimately that's what clowns teach us about humanity.

00:31:15: when you go too far in one direction You have to accept that you're also going in the other end.

00:31:21: Do you have to except the shadow of this situation?

00:31:23: To use a psychological term, we cannot really disconnect vulnerability from strength.

00:31:30: unless you are aware off your vulnerability will never be as strong As you can.

00:31:37: and vulnerability is all.

00:31:38: so how people connect to each other, right?

00:31:41: You can't connect with people fully unless they're vulnerable.

00:31:43: I guess that's what helps in these difficult settings like crisis environments and hospital environment is connected with the clown because there are this element of vulnerability shared here.

00:31:55: Absolutely!

00:31:56: Because you have an audience which isn't only vulnerable but we all are somehow vulnerable experiencing presently their vulnerability.

00:32:07: They have actually been hurt in a way, you know there's something is happening with the body or with their mind.

00:32:12: they are actually suffering anyway so that our exploring their vulnerability and hearing now So your absolute device.

00:32:22: when the clown comes and the clown shows the vulnerability of to human condition and the vulnerability off their own character which is essentially, the vulnerability of their own life.

00:32:36: Of your own reality then connection is easier.

00:32:43: So thank you so much Lukas for this amazing insight.

00:32:46: it's been really great to draw from your extensive experience and have a really in-depth discussion about the art of healthcare currently.

00:32:55: Thankyou for joining me today!

00:33:00: This has been Between Two Curtains by Red Noses International.

00:33:09: I've been your host, Molly Perkins.

00:33:11: Music and editing is by Cata Bitoft And you can find this podcast wherever you listen to podcasts.