Are the arts a missing link in European Mental Health Care?

00:00:06: Welcome to a new Between Two Curtains podcast episode, produced by Red Noses

00:00:11: International

00:00:12: as part of our activities for European Mental Health Week twenty-twenty six.

00:00:17: This year under the theme stronger together prioritise mental health in a changing Europe.

00:00:23: are The Arts and Missing Link In European Mental Healthcare?

00:00:27: That is the question we're putting on the table today!

00:00:30: And To Explore It I'm joined by Amir Shaheed an arts and health consultant based in Switzerland working with the World Health Organization, The Jameel Arts & Health Lab And the European Commission.

00:00:42: He combines a PhD in public health With a passion for music and is intrigued by how shifts In culture and attention can help address individual environmental and societal challenges.

00:00:54: Amir welcome thank you so much For joining us today on the podcast.

00:00:58: Thank You for having me.

00:01:00: It's my pleasure.

00:01:00: Where are you joining Us from?

00:01:02: I'm joining you from Zurich, Switzerland.

00:01:05: Ah beautiful!

00:01:06: So i will already dive into the first question for you and that is... ...that you've built a career that sits at very unusual crossroads to this point biochemistry environmental engineering public health as well as the arts.

00:01:20: so when did you first realize these worlds weren't as separate they might seem?

00:01:25: Thank You For That Question.

00:01:26: it's one of those significant for me because in many ways they do seem different, but that's because the underlying question is actually what connected them rather than What?

00:01:38: They are in and of themselves.

00:01:39: And I think my career if i can even call it that It's more a journey has been Informed by A Question which was much broader in nature and Which Was Kind Of One of Those big ones.

00:01:54: That's why is the world where it is?

00:01:57: and what?

00:01:58: if I refine that a little bit more, It was something around looking at complex challenges from poverty to climate change To health inequalities trying understand What i should learn?

00:02:12: To be able to address those problems.

00:02:14: And so i went through what i thought were solutions because they provided very strong tools understanding The natural world and understanding of biology, chemistry physical systems in the body.

00:02:27: Understanding water sanitation hygiene this sort of environmental context which we are now... And each one actually ended up being a broader epistemological circle as it were.

00:02:39: Interesting enough that rather I got from biochemistry to public health The more i became aware something was really at core those which is humans How we pay attention to the world, how you make meaning of the word because a lot of problems.

00:02:55: The way I see them from climate change to poverty they're not an absolute unequivocal unchangeable natural system or state their choices that humans have made collectively and individually.

00:03:10: And when look at those We have to get down two things like culture To the water that we swim in?

00:03:19: maximizing our self-interest, should we just be growing things as fast as possible?

00:03:23: Should we address things by cutting them off from their

00:03:26: hold?".

00:03:26: And increasingly this kind of drew me to the power of culture because I've also been an artist.

00:03:33: A very keen musician and was always interested in that space.

00:03:49: KHD and public health brought me to an interest in what does culture have to say?

00:03:53: To the world today, two complex challenges.

00:03:57: And I was very happy to see that there's now been a growing space within World of Public Health which is where studied the most that has been looking at the role of culture and arts engagement.

00:04:08: That's why i find myself happily into day and am interested how different modes different multiple modes of knowing how culture as a whole can contribute to both healing ourselves but also the planet.

00:04:25: Great, that's really fascinating.

00:04:27: And you're so right in saying culture is a fundamental part of everything we do as humans and it's an interesting new approach.

00:04:36: So looking back now was there specific moment on this journey where you witnessed the arts doing something for someone mental health?

00:04:44: That no clinical intervention could have delivered Something very hard to measure but impossible to ignore.

00:04:51: Yeah I think There wasn't any one moment, but I can think of a few very short ones.

00:04:57: One of them was our member story by Carl Jung the famous psychiatrist psychoanalyst realizing that in order to get across to one of his patients he had to stop trying to speak you know again analytically to that patient.

00:05:15: and his breakthrough happened And that was where the floodgate sort of released.

00:05:23: She had this massive cathartic moment and could start reconnecting to her childhood, to her identity.

00:05:31: I used to live in Mali in West Africa over there So music and dance are very intertwined In a lot other cultures on the world But i think they were also similarly intertwined Western culture at one time, but that's been quite disconnected now.

00:05:48: But we still see this very practiced in a lot of other places in the world including Mali and there are regular rituals involving song-and dance which were done in sort of neighborhoods or specific household.

00:06:02: you can call these people to come your place And typically I mean a psychoanalyst might say This was to solve any mental health issue releasing energy, providing catharsis.

00:06:18: Providing a narrative of meaning that then has lots of psychological impacts on people and completely relieves them off certain things they've been going through, certain behaviors that have been exhibiting... And I think i saw it in my own life you know releasing difficult moments to song through um so crying while I was singing And I saw a very strong example in an area that's quite related to the topic we're discussing today, humanitarian contexts.

00:06:51: Action for Hope is an organization that works probably at very similar context to Red Noses and I was writing this story for UNESCO on this organisation working with refugees in a region of Syria which had been affected by war or recruitment from fundamentalist groups And they found that by going into a village, there had been very involved in recruiting most of its men to fight.

00:07:20: By going with the theater troupe and showcasing various simple stories through participatory theatre... ...of how people were engaging their loved ones who are in war.

00:07:31: Simple stories for mother bringing favorite food her child or sister calling her brother was on front line.

00:07:39: Simple story like this led amongst other things, contributed to a shift that led to the entire location negotiating terms of settlement with the government and saying we don't want this anymore because we're seeing an impact on what it is doing in our community.

00:07:59: That's beautiful really

00:08:04: fascinating I guess also its method building community and coming together through these different artistic modes of expression that you mentioned song, dance or theatre.

00:08:15: That's also a really powerful mechanism for it.

00:08:17: so that is fascinating

00:08:19: indeed.

00:08:20: Moving on to our next question The Who defines health as not merely the absence of disease but state-of-complete physical mental and social well being.

00:08:29: How does this shift conversation when we talk about what mental healthcare in general actually needs look like today?

00:08:37: I think many of these definitions were really well-designed.

00:08:41: When we look at the WHO definition it says, It's a state of complete physical mental and social wellbeing not merely the absence of disease or infirmity.

00:08:49: this introduces concepts of health being physical but also mental Also social.

00:08:55: so we start to look at in a systemic way when We look at other definitions that are implied In this one like mental Health.

00:09:03: It's a state of well-being in which an individual realizes his or her own, own abilities can cope with the normal stresses of life.

00:09:11: Can work productively and is able to make a contribution to their community.

00:09:16: Well being itself is described by estate In Which similar health it's resource for daily life and determined by social economic environmental conditions.

00:09:26: so What I love about all of these definitions is that they give us a very holistic view and systemic view, an ecological view almost.

00:09:34: So you can see the sort rings going from their inner world or for individuals to physical worlds... From individual to social worlds.

00:09:44: And so in short it shifts focus on treating illnesses as a broken body part To understanding a person in their whole self, inner and outer.

00:09:58: And understanding how it's produced socially structurally I think on... It also brings into the importance of relationality.

00:10:07: How we are in relation to again both our subjective Understanding or inner world as i say?

00:10:15: Our Outer-how?

00:10:16: We Are In Relationship To The Environment Or We're In Relationships To Our Structural Situation.

00:10:23: Hopefully This helps us see a model of health and well-being, which moves.

00:10:31: The shift that I think the space of arts in Health is really occupying amongst other disciplines A move from focusing on just what we call pathogenesis.

00:10:42: like elements contribute to disease To salutogenesis so the elements prevent us falling ill And think about health generation Right.

00:10:53: And to do that, we have to see things as a whole in this way?

00:10:57: Yeah!

00:10:58: That's exactly right.

00:10:59: and I think... We all know mental health has been historically sort of de-prioritised or underestimated so it is nice.

00:11:05: the society seems to be catching up little bit there.

00:11:08: So within that framework where does social determinants things like loneliness, economic insecurity lack of cultural participation sit as risk factors for poor mental health and are they being adequately addressed in current European policy?

00:11:24: In short social determinants which is already a great way to look at health because you're looking again at all the conditions in which we are born live work happen.

00:11:35: so this is seen as an important part with public health.

00:11:38: but When you look at mental health in particular, the overlap is huge.

00:11:44: They're not just background factors when we talk about mental health.

00:11:47: they can really be seen as primary drivers for mental health outcomes.

00:11:51: a huge preponderance of the mental health burden consists of things that are connected to stress too anxiety two depression to loneliness and these things are very closely correlated.

00:12:06: when we look at social determinants, We speak about again the conditions in which people are born grow work and age their access to power money and resource.

00:12:17: And so many of these upstream factors related education poverty your isolation level inequality that you have been subjected to, which then leads to things like your health behaviors.

00:12:35: You know diet smoking drug use.

00:12:38: so they're extremely connected.

00:12:40: I think the relationship is also bi-directional these social conditions They can trigger and worsen mental health conditions.

00:12:46: But poor mental help can also lead to a downward shift in job loss housing instability again behaviors many people who may not had a lived experience of this, felt this collectively during COVID for example.

00:13:01: I think we see this connection increasingly and what's nice to see is that this has been recognized increasingly at the level of European policy.

00:13:09: so as you said... We're starting to see this shift and i think the narrative is changing including the fact that we are having this conversation today but is aware of the importance of social determinants in mental health.

00:13:25: They're aware of seeing mental health within this larger ecological framework, within this large perspective that involves structural determinants and have explicitly identified things like equality equity access as being key elements to look at with these policies.

00:13:49: Okay That's great to know and awareness is a really great an important starting point for the trajectory, I guess.

00:13:57: So bringing it slightly back around what we do here at Red Noses so red noses health care clown artists draw on a wide range of artistic tools from physical comedy improvisation To music movement and sensorial play?

00:14:10: When We talk about the active ingredients of arts What Do The Arts Actually Do Inside A Person Physiologically Psychologically And Socially.

00:14:20: And what is it within the arts that causes this positive impact?

00:14:24: In a nutshell, we would say that engaging with the arts brings us into complex multimodal activity.

00:14:35: That involves multiple modes of knowing and having lots different effects at same time affecting individual as well social or environmental context.

00:14:47: they're in The word you use.

00:14:49: active ingredients is referring to work by some of my colleagues, Daisy Fancourt, Katie Warren many other researchers.

00:14:58: A lot of this has been taking place at UCL and they have a very handy model which sort of helps us grasp what something.

00:15:06: that's much more complex than just thinking about it in terms a drug or something.

00:15:12: But it is very, very helpful that they have a framework called the innate framework which is looking at the ingredients in arts and health And It breaks things up into three broad categories so you can look At The project conditions, the Conditions around people Or participants In context.

00:15:30: So for example We study the projects.

00:15:33: What art form are we using?

00:15:36: How is it designed?

00:15:37: What are the resources involved, what kind of sensory stimuli does that get going.

00:15:41: Is working on your physical motions or cognitive and creative stimuli?

00:15:48: who were people with their social diversity in this group?

00:15:52: Are there informal social exchanges?

00:15:54: a large group small groups what style of practice is taking place.

00:16:00: And then the context, you know how are you recruiting people?

00:16:03: What are the economic resources?

00:16:05: What does the environment and atmosphere in which it's taken place?

00:16:09: so they have a model that kind of breaks down to different elements.

00:16:13: or You can kind as We this express the active ingredients expressed as a model of arts engagement Which leads too various mechanisms, psychological biological social and behavioral which then lead to specific health outcomes.

00:16:30: So the active ingredients is what I described by the people The participants that context.

00:16:35: And if we look a little bit at the kind of mechanisms That are taking place again There are many in happening all At the same time We can break it down into physiological Psychological and social body mind and sort of People If you want.

00:16:51: And here we see for example, so from a physiological perspective reductions in stress-related pathways.

00:16:58: Regulation is very big work that comes up with this.

00:17:02: engaging the arts helps us regulate our cortisol levels are autonomic nervous system responses.

00:17:09: they can modulate arousal.

00:17:11: They provide calming and stimulating effects emotional reaction.

00:17:19: They can support emotional and physiological regulation, they entrain sensory motor engagement both your mind in your body right?

00:17:28: Your nerves and your sense of awareness...they entrain and synchronize so you-you can hear rhythm and your heart starts to change.

00:17:36: its it's synchronization.

00:17:38: um..to work with that.

00:17:39: we see incredible impacts on brain aging biological clocks neuroplasticity.

00:17:46: So that's at the physiological level, there is a whole host of ways.

00:17:51: we can see its impact psychologically.

00:17:54: it induces aesthetic pleasure and facilitates sense making.

00:17:58: It can cultivate emotional regulation amplify positive and reduce negative emotions help with cognitive flexibility change our levels of motivation in learning.

00:18:10: And then theres all important social part.

00:18:13: this was huge aspect to the arts, which is that it develops social connections activity relationships.

00:18:20: It can give us safe social space and support social learning build skills resources create a sense of bonding synchrony.

00:18:31: in short no one aspect this all focus on.

00:18:38: its also not bringing something you don't get another activities.

00:18:43: It's that it happens to be a very powerful, multi-modal multidimensional way of doing all of that which arguably adds the aesthetic side –the aspect of beauty– the aspect of us engaging in something in completely different ways paying attention… Which is probably quite different from almost any other thing And it's deeply human, you know?

00:19:07: Which I think is also something that a word people who work at Red Noses for example are very aware of in the humanizing healthcare.

00:19:14: So... That's little bit about and you can find lot more information if look out innate frameworks active ingredients on health multi-level framework for understanding these kind mechanisms action.

00:19:27: Really really fascinating!

00:19:29: People potentially underestimate their physiological implications of it that you were describing, that can have such a profound impact on really every area over person's being.

00:19:41: So thinking about all of this from research perspective how does arts humour play and human-impact mental health?

00:19:49: And what does it do with the more traditional clinical approaches might miss.

00:19:53: so how would explain to a sceptical hospital director or a Health Minister who wants see numbers before they actually believe in?

00:20:02: A lot of what we just discussed explains a big part of that question, right?

00:20:08: So we're seeing how these things work.

00:20:10: We are subjecting them to rigorous analysis and research in terms of active ingredients In terms of mechanisms of action And in terms health outcomes studies.

00:20:32: One of the biggest ones that we often cite is a two thousand and nineteen report published by the WHO, systematic review with over three-thousand different studies that were assessed And where we found you know very clear indications Of the role of the arts in preventing illness In promoting good health in treating and managing disease.

00:20:55: We've recently with colleagues at the Jimmy Larson Health Lab, WHO.

00:21:00: It's a various collaborating centers published series in The Lancet which is one of the most preeminent health journals in the world Which is articulating?

00:21:09: A lot of this includes systematic reviews on non communicable diseases.

00:21:14: it includes a lot of very specific outcome measures.

00:21:18: so to the skeptical person where you know what we can say that The evidence is there that this is a powerful complementary way of improving health and well-being.

00:21:34: It's not just your typical alternative care, it really responds in this multimodal delivery for you know, well-established health processes and outcomes.

00:21:48: It's addressing like we said everything from emotional expression to regulation to identity to meaning making the social cognitive development to neurological development doing so both individually and collectively.

00:22:02: It's there, it's just complex and doesn't fit necessarily in the typical language of a lot health.

00:22:08: There is a large diversity of mechanisms or types studies for quality research.

00:22:13: so still lots to be done in terms of consolidating that?

00:22:18: In terms getting common language?

00:22:21: Making the language... A lot these impacts which don't fit into your blood pressure you know, and speaking to these more subjective aspects of identity in meaning and self-awareness.

00:22:33: And social connectedness loneliness.

00:22:36: so there is still some work that a lot has do with just being open.

00:22:40: actually I think it requires more than evidence experience.

00:22:46: what we're talking about this as seen is a huge aspect that can really change the skeptical person, as if they can join in a participatory session.

00:22:56: If I work for example with mothers who have postpartum depression and we do singing groups of them just bringing somebody into one of those sessions can allow people to see things differently or be more open towards other ways.

00:23:16: For sure, for sure.

00:23:18: So on to the next question.

00:23:20: one of the most fascinating frontiers in this field is arts interventions and crisis settings.

00:23:26: what does science say about why the arts work precisely when people are at their most vulnerable?

00:23:31: And What Are The Challenges To Measuring That Impact In Practice In Crisis Settings?

00:23:38: Significant, very timely.

00:23:40: Very relevant area.

00:23:42: today.

00:23:43: there seems to be a crisis everywhere in the world In many ways right now.

00:23:47: here too we do see A huge role actually for cultural interventions For artistic interventions The organization I cited at the beginning of our conversation Action for hope.

00:23:59: they have a thing that They call Cultural convoys where they go into refugee camps which are you know much more used To seeing people come with bags of flour and water, things like that but they come equipped with easels and films.

00:24:14: And what we see amongst other things is a huge role in addressing expression trauma non-verbal approaches to basically what you've been through right?

00:24:28: Restoring agency control creating psychological safe spaces strengthening social support reducing stigma supporting development for children who've come into an area that have just gone through some serious trauma.

00:24:43: Playing, drawing storytelling can help them address what they're just going to restore a certain routine.

00:24:49: bring the soft entry point then dealing with more analytical mental health services.

00:24:55: it restores a sense of identity and dignity build social connection create safe spaces.

00:25:01: I think this is big part actually beautiful space for emotional containers and where people are listening, allowing you to express yourself.

00:25:12: It supports agency in voice And again a human holistic health impact.

00:25:19: So we see this red noses of course have A lot of experience at this emergency smile which We may speak about little bit later.

00:25:26: The world that Health Clowning really understands This.

00:25:29: You know the power.

00:25:31: going into Ukrainian school or shelter and dealing with young children, even the elderly through humor.

00:25:41: Through creative activity both connects them.

00:25:45: it allows to offload light or allow them understand what they've been through.

00:25:49: give them a safe space for that.

00:25:52: these are very challenging though as you say so this is difficult.

00:25:56: we're dealing with unstable contexts people coming in out moving quickly.

00:26:01: there's an ethical question of person who's facilitating this, do people feel forced to engage in these artistic things or is it dangerous?

00:26:11: In fact because could you retraumatize people if you go at it too hard.

00:26:15: There's a lot of sensitivity which is required.

00:26:18: there's an extreme diversity of cultures often so maybe certain ways of engaging with people may not be appropriate others... Maybe you have to be extremely sensitive.

00:26:27: they're important risks.

00:26:30: you don't want people to be exposed either in terms of, sharing what they've been sharing creatively.

00:26:38: There's the difficulty of starting something and then stopping because it is an emergency context.

00:26:42: but overall we see that these are really effective powerful ways.

00:26:48: We see some research which has taken place right now That were bringing a much more methodologically sound approach really great ways of circumnavigating a lot of these challenges.

00:27:13: physiological impact of healthcare clowning on unaccompanied migrant children and the aid workers supporting them.

00:27:19: What does a project like that tell us about the future, how we design or measure arts-based mental health interventions in humanitarian contexts?

00:27:28: I must preface this by saying i'm not an expert but it is doing really important work.

00:27:35: so A lot of mental health challenges.

00:27:38: Of course, in this context refugees coming to the Asian islands.

00:27:43: it's one of the primary areas for this and for you know migrants in Europe people are coming from deep trauma, anxiety depression.

00:27:53: This is also affecting field workers and you know who are themselves often at risk of burnout?

00:27:58: And what's great about this emergency smile research project is that it's looking both the migrants themselves and at their health worker.

00:28:06: so we're kind of understanding both in with this helps us.

00:28:09: It's providing a very high quality study to A context which has not often studied.

00:28:13: because if all the difficulties that be described before standard for how we can explore getting good evidence, good mixed methods designs that capture this in very challenging settings.

00:28:28: Understanding both the impact of arts interventions on vulnerable populations and On The Health workforce which is really important.

00:28:38: And they're doing it using a great series of measurements Which has also been lacking.

00:28:44: They are looking at well-being social connection stress across different populations.

00:28:48: And so it's generally setting a really good standard for the future and providing us information that might be necessary, unfortunately increasingly in our world with so many humanitarian challenges

00:29:01: It sounds pretty groundbreaking.

00:29:03: way you said is measuring things that aren't normally measured?

00:29:07: Really setting precedent of this moving forward.

00:29:10: So, bringing the topic over to European Mental Health Week.

00:29:14: The theme this year is collective resilience being stronger together and hope in times of crisis.

00:29:21: So these are all.

00:29:22: interestingly, some of the things arts and community programs are uniquely good at generating.

00:29:27: What would a genuinely cross-sectoral approach to mental health in Europe look like?

00:29:32: In practice one for where example cultural ministries Health Systems NGOs and Arts Organisations were actually working an integrated way.

00:29:42: Yeah I think that's really important today And we're seeing Good Ones starting with... We're starting good initiatives in the space.

00:29:53: A truly cross-sectoral approach needs to really be that, it needs collaboration between different institutions which creates joint commissioning, investment in prevention and well-being not only treatment with shared outcome measures and measurement frameworks.

00:30:32: With community co-production we are starting to see that.

00:30:35: they've been reviews of policy documents and the most powerful ones were those where ministries of health culture education really came together.

00:30:44: We've been seeing this now in the comprehensive approach to mental health at the EU level, which is explicitly called for.

00:30:50: This we're seeing.

00:30:52: things like the EU horizon grant, which has explicitly opening itself for culture and Health being funded together.

00:31:01: there's been a recent EU report it was the OMC Report on Culture and Health Which provides frameworks For what a joint policy would actually look Like.

00:31:11: A big part of that Is obviously The funding But when you create, as we're seeing now the possibility for a grant that can bring multiple people together.

00:31:21: When you are creating The Possibility You know...you have A Culture Output That Includes Health In It..You Have A Health Output that Includs Culture in it.

00:31:30: This Already Just Opens Up The Ground In A Massive Way So We Are Starting To See That!

00:31:35: That's Exciting

00:31:37: Indeed.

00:31:37: So organisations like Red Noses have been making exactly this argument for over thirty years that humour, play and artistic connection are not peripheral to care but central to it.

00:31:48: And they've been advocating for this at the European Parliament and beyond.

00:31:52: as someone who works in the intersection of WHO policy and arts research do you think Europe is finally ready to act on evidence?

00:32:01: Yeah I think we're seeing that increasingly.

00:32:04: so it looks like what's starting to happen and there is still a lot of room for progress, but we would see things like routine commissioning of arts.

00:32:12: And play-based interventions in care system.

00:32:15: We'd seen more of this reflected both in the culture sector... ...and in the biomedical sector In the health center mental health and psychosocial support pathways including the role of culture, joint funding streams metrics that include well-being social connectedness loneliness things like this and good quality control.

00:32:40: Good training for arts based relational approaches in health.

00:32:44: again we're starting to see The EU Work Plan for Culture has explicitly spoken about arts and health.

00:32:51: This OMC report is providing this, the comprehensive approach to mental health in Europe.

00:32:56: that WHO's Comprehensive Mental Health Action Plan and funding all start to have this of course.

00:33:04: what else do we need?

00:33:05: It's not just evidence it's not policy.

00:33:06: We need incentives to shift.

00:33:08: we need to shift cultural shift to, you know valuing well-being over just efficiency collective flourishing over this individual and understanding of relational And connection or we're just optimization.

00:33:22: That's the one which is slowly starting to shift with public discourse but kind of conversations were having now a greater awareness probably more difficulty because that does open us To be need for this in our individual lives

00:33:39: Definitely, but it's reassuring to learn from our conversations today that change is coming.

00:33:45: It's on the way and yeah we can hope that it's a good positive trajectory.

00:33:50: So finally for someone listening to this podcast who isn't a researcher or policy maker But its just person trying to protect their own mental health Or support some one they love What is most important thing you would like them take away?

00:34:02: From everything We've talked about Today

00:34:05: Is there so many different ways of paying attention different ways of knowing.

00:34:11: We spend so much time in one part of our heads, you know?

00:34:16: In this sort of rational voice that's telling us things and when we engage in the other spaces... ...we can kind of realize maybe some what stories were telling ourselves about What is really important or not And things which didn't think are important.

00:34:31: That meaning and narrative was very powerful.

00:34:34: Maybe at a level of consciousness.

00:34:37: We need to retell stories that are very powerful.

00:34:40: Retell our own stories, retell those of our collective.

00:34:44: but also there's things where we should really seek out the whole space for talking and thinking in words.

00:34:52: again engage with non-verbal and ineffable.

00:34:56: The banner people have been trying.

00:35:01: Um, known as you know just that engaging in culture is a health behavior arts engagement.

00:35:06: Is the Health Behavior and to health colleagues That we need to focus more on salutogenesis?

00:35:12: how do We create health?

00:35:13: How Do we humanize health?

00:35:16: great advice.

00:35:17: i'm going To try And put it into practice myself and tell Myself some nice stories In my own head.

00:35:22: One more for that.

00:35:23: It's Just.

00:35:23: Colleagues in Australia Have Actually Worked On A Culture Dose And They Recommend That Even Two Hours A Week Is Really improving for your mental health.

00:35:34: So that would probably also be another take-home, okay?

00:35:36: Trying two hours of any creative work a week.

00:35:40: Perfect!

00:35:41: Fabulous advice and I want to thank you so much for joining me today in this really insightful conversation.

00:35:47: For sure learned a lot and i hope the listeners did too.

00:35:50: Thank you so Much Amir for joining Me Today.

00:35:52: It was super insightful Conversation And it's a real pleasure To have You with

00:35:56: us.

00:36:01: This has been Between Two Curtains, a podcast by Red Noses International.

00:36:05: I've been your host Molly Perkins.

00:36:08: Music and Editing is by Kat Bitoft.

00:36:11: You can find this podcast wherever you listen to podcasts.

00:36:15: Thank you so much for joining us And until next time.